As a Church leader I often wonder how much people know about their own faith… and I also wonder how much they know of other religions. I think having a greater knowledge of other religions only helps you solidify your beliefs while understanding where others are coming from! I studied at a Jesuit College and spent countless hours talking about God, the scriptures, and life with Jesuit priests I would now call friends. In those year I learned a lot of people don’t know much about the Catholic Church, including friends who considered themselves Catholic.
Link (here) to read the full post at at the blog entitled, His Flame Alone by Tony Simoncini
21 comments:
How is it possible that half of all Catholics did not know the Catholic doctrine on the Eucharist? What is the US Catholic Church going to do about this issue this Sunday before communion?
I just took the test at CNN -- http://bit.ly/b8Hk4u
EA
Just more Mainstream Media disinformation.
Joseph --But how do you now it's not true?
EA
CORRECTION
But how do you know it's not true?
EA
I would think that Joseph is speaking to the relevancy of the test.
Even if everyone got perfect scores on this test our souls would still be no closer to perfection.
So the test is more relevant to the media than the true meaning and effectiveness of religion.
Of course, this prompts the question: What should be emphasized? And, as a corollary: What is the cost of emphasizing trivia such as the contents of this test?
C'mon Tony--those were some basic questions that all Christians should know!
Why is it that every time Catholics fall short conservatives scream "media bias"? I know why--it's an easy, feel good fall back that doesn't demand any change from us.
If we gave that test to saints and prophets I wouldn't expect very high scores.
The question which 50% of Catholics allegedly answered wrong is whether Jesus is truly or only symbolically present in the Eucharist. That is not trivia.
How can a Catholic ever argue that it's not relevant that Catholics know their faith and that they are receiving God when they receive the consecrated host?
EA
EA,
When we create “right” and “wrong” interpretations of God’s will we only further the distance of the Church from God.
That is, if we, as a society, pass laws that prevent abortion, enforce traditional marriage, or otherwise use persuasion to get conformance to Christian values, then we are corrupting the process. It becomes difficult for God to gauge the progress of particular souls. That is one reason why we have the “golden rule”. If God has a lesson in progress for someone, and our society then forces their conformance with a value external to their own, it becomes difficult to assess the success of the lesson.
Anti-Catholicism can hang its hat on many of our rusty nails.
I have heard this same old canard recirculated many times in the last 10 years. Take that same poll in the line to the confessional or in line for communion on Sunday? Broken Catholic's are unreliable in their ability to answer any questions in regards to the truths of their Faith.
Having been a broken Catholic, I know my way around in the dark.
JMJ
Joe
Joseph,
Catholics are required to receive Catechism lessons before first communion. When you refer to 'broken' Catholics, do you mean they forgot the consecrated hot was Jesus Christ, or they stopped believing, or they were never taught as much, or what?
In addition, the fact that you have been hearing this story for 10 years is certainly not proof that what the poll claims is not true.
Joseph,
Catholics are required to receive Catechism lessons before first communion. When you refer to 'broken' Catholics, do you mean they forgot the consecrated host was Jesus Christ, or they stopped believing, or they were never taught as much, or what?
In addition, the fact that you have been hearing this story for 10 years is certainly not proof that what the poll claims is not true.
EA
Dear EU,
A combination of all your points could be attributed to broken Catholicism.
This not a new problem lets look at the Gospel of John chapter 6
I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world."
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The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?"
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Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
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Whoever eats 19 my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
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For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
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Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.
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Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.
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This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever."
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These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.
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20 Then many of his disciples who were listening said, "This saying is hard; who can accept it?"
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Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, "Does this shock you?
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What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? 21
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It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh 22 is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
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But there are some of you who do not believe." Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him.
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And he said, "For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father."
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As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.
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Jesus then said to the Twelve, "Do you also want to leave?"
Now lets look at Luther's time.
The third and the sharpest controversy was that opened by the Reformation in the sixteenth century, in regard to which it must be remarked that Luther was the only one among the Reformers who still clung to the old Catholic doctrine, and, though subjecting it to manifold misrepresentations, defended it most tenaciously. He was diametrically opposed by Zwingli of Zurich, who, as was seen above, reduced the Eucharist to an empty, meaningless symbol.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05573a.htm
A timeless argument
JMJ
Joe
Joe,
Both the John 6 passage and the protestant rebellion illustrate disbelief in Christ's real presence in the Eucharist.
But the poll is claiming that 50% of Catholics don't even know what the Catholic doctrine is. That's an educational gap, not necessarily disbelief.
However, now that the U.S. bishops and priests know about this poll they are obligated to act. They could, for example, take informal polls at mass tomorrow, carefully and repeatedly explain what Church doctrine is, and issue a spiritual warning that only those who believe should commune.
To believe is faith. To believe is to take the jump. Only those who take the jump of faith should commune. The others should wait until they are ready to take it.
EA
P.S. Priest might also explain why the Catholic Church has its Eucharistic doctrine, its evangelical foundation.
In addition, if and only if one believes that the most basic substance of reality is "meaning" or "symbol" (that there is nothing more fundamental), then to believe that Jesus is symbolically present is the same thing as to believe He is really present.
EA
Gentleman,
This has been fun. We will have to do it more often.
JMJ
Joe
A symbol can never be that which is most fundamental because it's always a symbol of something. Therefore, I need to clarify that I don't believe it's enough to believe that Jesus is symbolically present, as protestants argue.
However, Schillebeeckx (never finally condemned by Vatican) argued for trans-signification which to me is plausible if "meaning" (not symbols) is what is most fundamental.
Molecules and atoms, etc. should be considered less fundamental than "meaning" because they presuppose a symbolic system, that is, mathematics and physics.
So in John 1:1-3, The Mystery is expressed as best as can be, in words:
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be..."
...................................
Mass this afternoon (new parish) was fantastic. The priest's homily was about the crisis of faith (not of vocations) in The Church.
EA
Enrique,
Thanks for clarifying the limitations of symbols. Strangely, I find that we are in complete agreement on this point.
Tony
Rather than get involved in the “Eucharist flesh/no flesh” interpretations, it is worthwhile to observe something important in this scripture that is generally overlooked.
Our Father (a transcendent “God”) created an environment here – specifically, lessons to transform the soul (spirit/immaterial). Those lessons are hidden from view, and this work is ongoing.
Lessons are hidden for very practical reasons. If someone displays anger, and we slap his hand each time he displays anger, then he will stop displaying anger – but he will most likely not be transformed into someone with a deep understanding of anger. So observation/feedback must not be easily observed.
Not all lessons that are administered have been tried before. That means that new things are sometimes learned by those receiving the lessons. This helps God accumulate knowledge that can be used on other souls.
So Christ was created (material/flesh/blood) and sent here with a modification to the existing system. It had been feared that telling people more about the lessons would prevent the lessons. Instead, it was found to help some people progress in the lessons. So (“though Christ”) we were given information about the goal of the lessons that we can use now. This information defines a significant change. It helps people to assist their immaterial souls (“live forever”)
"Our Father (a transcendent “God”) created an environment here..."
Not only transcendent. He is active historically and present personally in the most minute details of each creature's life. We are his estranged children, creatures, not sons of the same substance as Jesus Christ.
"This helps God accumulate knowledge that can be used on other souls."
He is omniscient already.
"So Christ was created (material/flesh/blood) and sent here with a modification to the existing system."
Christ was not created. He existed prior to creation and all was created for and through him. In the flesh, he was born of the Blessed Virgin Mary by the power of the Holy Spirit, not created. This is revelation (John 1), not a theory.
He is the same in substance (and meaning) as the Father and the Holy Spirit, and like them 1 of 3 persons of the Blessed Trinity, the One and Only and Most Holy God.
Tony D – Surely you know these doctrines but it's not clear that you believe them. I get the impression that you are not a Catholic or perhaps one that is not in agreement with Church doctrine on fundamental issues. Is this correct?
Your comments suggest that you have been influenced by gnosticism and new age thinking. Is this correct?
Whatever the case, would you be willing to provide us with a bibliography so that we may better understand where you are coming from?
EA
I would like to offer my perspective as a protestant believer with a Jesuit education and a deep respect for the Jesuits I came to befriend at my alma mater Spring Hill College in Mobile Alabama...
In regards to the brokenness of the catholic church or any church for that matter in it's people understanding what the Eucharist is... I blame our systems!
The systems we have in place at Protestant and Catholic churches value information not transformation. When we are satisfied that we have simply taught people the information we fail them and Jesus... He tells us to make disciples, not knowers of information! The Catholic church is not the only one represented poorly by the results in this article... ALL faiths should be having this discussion. How do we move people from knowing the information to experiencing the transformation of heart that Jesus has called us all to experience!
I would say everyone on this blog is someone who has experienced, or is in pursuit of that transformation... and the challenge to us all is this... Who are you discipling? Or do we just leave that job to the priests and pastors in our midst?
I would argue that if you are on this blog and have experienced the life changing transformation that only the spirit of God brings, you have an obligation to share that with others and invite them into the same kind of experience. This is how we will see our fellow church members score better on such basic questions of our faith!
Jesus desires and brings transformation, not simply transferring information!
Grace and Peace!
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