Saturday, September 25, 2010

Hippie Jesuit Church

I am surprised that I am a practicing Catholic. I didn't grow up going every Sunday. It was a little confusing, in fact. 
Around the time of my First Holy Communion we were a part of a "hippie," Jesuit church that met in a hall and tore apart loaves of french bread. Sometimes families would plan the Mass and I remember one where we reenacted Free to Be You and Me
(Free to Be…You and Me’ was a project of the Ms. Foundation for Women, giving it an openly feminist base, and the expressed goal was to erase stereotypes based on class, race, and s@x in society from the bottom up, starting with children.) In nice weather we'd go to a field and sit on blankets singing, Bob Dylan's "Blowing in the Wind" with nuns playing guitars.
Link (here) to Totus Tuus Blog


TonyD said...

I enjoyed reading her blog entry – and contrasting her “before” and “after” values. It is interesting to me that neither set of “values” seems particularly consistent with God’s values. Instead, her new “values” tend to be perspectives that are consistent with the current interpretations of a “Christian” life -- Really, more a “social conformity” than any deep understanding of values.

This should not be surprising. Our “Christian” values do not generally reflect God’s true, spiritual, values. This is only sometimes a problem. In general, an individual shouldn’t try to reflect God’s spiritual values—we don’t have the judgment to understand and apply those values. Jesus spoke in parables for a reason, and things haven’t really changed. As a result, trying to live God’s spiritual values often goes against good judgment and desired outcomes. For us, it would be like one person sharing while everyone else refuses to share.

Anonymous said...


Since according to you one cannot understand God's values, how is that you know what they are not?

What are God's values, according to you, TonyD?

TonyD said...

God's values require judgment in order to be used in alignment with God's will. Look at all the problems caused by people who use "love your neighbor" to impose their interpretation of God's values. No humility. No understanding of the actual commandment. No alignment with God's will. They create harm and do evil - while decrying others as evil.

So the goal is not to enumerate God's values. That will only result in failure. Information is not provided because we want to watch people fail at understanding those values or to watch them use poor judgment when applying those values.

Anonymous said...

So "TonyD" your utterly evasive response is that... you don't want to respond ....because you want to 'watch':

1. "...people fail at understanding those values."

2. "...or ...use poor judgment when applying those values."

But which values you are referring to?

TonyD said...


In asking “which values” you bring up a good question. We are expected to conform to God’s values while there is no intention of fully revealing them in this existence. But God’s values are not limited to the values themselves. They include skills related to those values – weighing trade-offs, emotional control, generating options, use of reason, consideration for others, understanding the limitations of truth – to name just a few.

But a person’s values may be different from God’s values – even if one believes in God, and desires to be a “good” person. Yet, being a “good” person is not equivalent to living God’s values. So one of our goals here is to become capable of transcending our own judgment.

Thus there are many things here that are not fully explained – eg. many complex aspects of consciousness related to that transcendence.

On the other hand, there are many things here that are explained – enough so that we are faced with the complex decisions (“tests”) that allow our souls to progress. We get lessons – lessons in emotional control, use of judgment, and application of values – so that we can ultimately use our reason to make balanced judgments. Only then are we able to hear more of God’s values.

Anonymous said...

TonyD -- You wrote: "...being a “good” person is not equivalent to living God’s values."

So, for the third time, according to you, what are God's values?

TonyD said...


You have already been told the values in more ways than you realize.

Anonymous said...

TonyD -- If you cannot define your terms in plain English then no one will understand you or be able to appreciate your wisdom.

+JMJ+ said...


Kinda "surprised" to be here....

I was just responding to a meme that a friend tagged me in...just playing along to be gracious. I wasn't thinking I was writing to define myself.

Funny, I feel I don't conform to most of society, but I am also sure that I do fall short of living up to God's values.

As I wrote, the journey continues...

Pray for me.

TonyD said...


You’d like specifics? How about help the poor. Love your neighbor. Respect others’ genuinely held values. Be humble. Be honest. Honor your agreements. Value life. Be committed to free will. Love God. Respect the Church. Respect laws. Be just.

I could go on.

If you’ve been reading my other posts then you know that somehow these all seem to get garbled in translation.


Anonymous said...

Now that wasn't so difficult to do TonyD, was it?

The only problem is that in some cases it contradicts almost all of what you've previously claimed (e.g. 'Help the poor', "Love your neighbor').

In others, you are confusing. For example, do you mean that one should respect others regardless (I agree) or their 'genuinely held values' (abortion 'right')?

Love God or love God above all things?

TonyD said...


I have a better question for you. Is it ever possible to help the poor too much? Or is it ever possible to love your neighbor too much?

I’ll share the answer: If evil is real, then the answer must be “yes” – it is possible to do any of those things too much. That is, there will be occasions when your choice is “help evil” or “choose the creation of poverty”.

Another question: Do you know what evil is? If so, how are you so sure? If you’ve read the Bible, then you may have noticed that God does many things that we simplistically classify as evil. So, unless someone lacks humility, or thinks they have judgment equivalent to God’s, then the answer must be “I don’t recognize evil.”

Some people may think this puts them in a worse position – they don’t know evil, they don’t know when to help the poor. But that is the position they’ve always been in – they just didn’t know it. But this isn’t generally a problem, since most people have opportunities that are limited by God.

I should add that for most people – with some exceptions – they should practice “help the poor” much more and practice “love your neighbor” much more. But I’m not talking to those people. And the good news is that they can’t really understand what I’m saying anyway.