Monday, July 28, 2008

The Tablet On S.. And The Modern Catholic,

From Fr. Ray Blake in his blog entitled,
Tablet Survey on Humanae Vitae: a failure in catechesis .
Forgive me for making such a recommendation but read The Tablet on Sex and the Modern Catholic, the article is based on a survey of Mass going Catholics by the Von Huegal Institute, as part of the Tablet's Humanae Vitae "celebrations". All the statistics are pretty frightening like the attitudes of most Catholics to abortiofacients or artificial contraception.
Link (here)


John Michael said...

Great recommendation.

Contraception is killing us. Some quicker than others.

God help us.

Joseph Fromm said...

Contraception help men rob the dinity of women.

Anonymous said...

"Contraception help men rob the dinity of women."

Joseph I'm a catholic woman,catechist, I'm married since 1980, I have 3 kids, ALWAYS in my married life I made use of artificial contraception and I assure you that this your, and Paul VI, statetement is a nonsense.
And catholic people know this, why do you think less 5% of catholic use NFP?

Joseph Fromm said...

Dear Catechist,
So when you promised to teach faithfully the deposit of faith of the Catholic Church you where telling a______? Just because you like putting chemicals in your body, does not mean you are correct in doing so.

Anonymous said...

Dear Joseph

"So when you promised to teach faithfully the deposit of faith of the Catholic Church you where telling a______?"

Do you never heard anything about faithfuls' conscience?

BTW in my Diocese, an others,(I live in Italy)at wedding catholic course (from 1 to 3 meeting with a priest and/or a catholic couple)
happens this:

They speak about NFP,(this is mandatory; speak about I mean, not NFP :)) and always underline the spouses's conscience in choosing about what fit them.

The couple speaking NFP ( they never teach this) very often doesn't use NFP.
I'm insider the catholic church for years now and never met anyone using NFP.

Why do catholic people ignore HV and NFP? because with NFP catholic people achieve the same end by more complicated means, while having less sex.

Catherine said...

Dear Joseph,

I have been following these comments with great interest. After the most recent Anonymous post, I feel inclined to leave a comment.

I have been a Catholic for just over 13 years now. During my RCIA formation, we were taught (rather poorly, I might add) that we should seek out all information regarding these difficult topics and make a decision based on "what your conscience tells you to do." This methodology was especially stressed during talks about sexual ethics and the like.

However, something that those who "catechized" me failed miserably at was in teaching me about my conscience. Far too often, people just assume that God gives them this conscience and they can go on autopilot through life, listening to this little voice.

They did not teach that we must nurture our consciences so that we can make our decisions in accord with God's will for us. This took me several years and much prayer to learn.

For the first part of our marriage, my husband and I practiced artificial contraception. By the time we reached our third anniversary, we nearly filed for divorce. Contraception poisoned our marriage, nearly fatally so.

In the fourth year of our marriage, we decided that it would be a good thing to invite God into our marital embrace. The first time we did so, we joyfully conceived our first child.

After her birth, we began to practice NFP due to my health concerns and recovery from c-section. We have joyfully practiced NFP successfully for over six years now.

Yes, there are struggles at times. However, God has blessed us with not only beautiful children, but with a marriage vibrant with communication and mutual respect for one another.

Contrary to what Anonymous says, we have much more sex now than we did when we contracepted. And, I am happy to report (and I am sure that my husband will agree) that the quality of sex is infinitely better.

Why? Because we are having sex the way that God intended for husbands and wives-naturally and without barriers to His grace and mutual love for us.

Thank you for your wonderful blog!

Anonymous said...


I'm happy to see that NFP fits you very well.

As I wrote any couples must use the contraception that fits better their desire and feelings.
For me was artificial contraception.
And it isn't a sin. I know I'm making the right thing for my very happy( thanks God ) marriage.

Every couple must follow his conscience.

Joseph Fromm said...

Dear Catherine,
Your experience is similar to mine. Contraception ruins the gentle nature of marriage. When a man marries a woman, he is marrying a wife, a mother, a confidant, a best friend and most importantly a gift from God, not a concubine. When a man and a woman marry they become "One Flesh", chemicals devalue everything about the "One Flesh".

As for the conscience it must be educated in light of the Truth of Christ. My four year old sons conscience tells him he doesn't need to brush his teeth. When I was in my twenties my conscience told me thrills (Breaking Commandemnts) were what I was looking for. Conscience is a means for the Dark Spirit to do his work.
I would not bet my Salvation on contraception.

Joseph Fromm said...

This quote is from Fr. John Corapi

"Life begins at conception. Abortion begins at artificial contraception."

Thank you St. Robert Bellarmine Blog this one.

John Michael said...

Dear Catechist,

I see you are quite bold.

I have a couple of questions for you. Being a catechist, you are a teacher of the Faith of the Church.

Would you mind showing me where Holy Mother Church teaches that contraception is not a sin and where it is a sin?

Second, can you please show me how a faithful conscience can justify disobedience to the Magisterium of the Church?

May God bless you and please pray for my family as we are having a baby this week.

I am looking forward to your response.

Anonymous said...

Dear John Michael

“ can you please show me how a faithful conscience can justify disobedience to the Magisterium of the Church?”

You have an American approach to the catholic faith, black or white. But this doesn’t work in this way John!
I don’t care absolutely anything about this “teaching “ of the Church and I happily
follow my conscience. Is it a problem for you?

Yes? Well then look at card. Bertone.

I posted this Italian story many times but I’m looking forward to reading your reflection about this.

In Genova a catholic Foundation owns an hospital, the Galliera, and its President is the Archbishop of Genova.
This hospital every year receives 100 millions euro by the Italian State and must practice all public healthcare services, included abortion.
So, Bertone , now Vatican number 2, when was archbishop of Genova was also Galliera’s President and under his tenure several abortions were made there every year. Bertone could stop abortions giving up Italian funding, but he chose money, and so abortions continued.

In this 2005 interview: maggioant...one30112005.htm Bertone speak about this.

An excerpt (I traslate from italian):

“ As regards abortion, the fact that it is practiced in a Catholic hospital like the Galliera puts the Cardinal in serious difficulty. "As president of this hospital," he said, "I would wish to save a life." But observing the law imposes on all structures inserted in the public system the practice of terminating pregnancies. And so, since all the personnel are conscientious objectors, once a week a consultant who practices abortion comes into action. "About 200 a year" clarified the head of the section, Felice Ripetti.”

What do you thing about this John Michael ? For the pope was ok.

John Michael said...

Dear Catechist,

I don’t care absolutely anything about this “teaching “ of the Church.

Then why are you a catechist?

You would agree that the teaching of Catholic Church says using a contraception is an grave sin? I am not asking if you follow it, just if you actually know what the teaching is.

You mentioned a couple of times this supremacy of conscience, (our conscience trumps the teaching authority of the Church) can you show me in scripture or CCC where this is located? Could it be a man made doctrine?

For the article you cite, it seems as if the Cardinal is choosing government funding over the teachings of the faith. Do you agree?

My comment comes from scripture.

1Tim.6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evils; it is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced their hearts with many pangs.

Are you trying to say it is OK to kill babies for money?

Or are you trying to say because one person sins that the Pope supports this?

Can you document where the Pope supports this?

Anonymous said...

Dear John Michael,

“Then why are you a catechist?”

Because I believe in Christ and in the Church, but I know that in the church’s life many teachings changed, so I don’t agree with a teaching obviously opposite to the sensus fidelium.
I teach boys and girls making first communion. If I was asked to teach NFP to adults I’d turn down because I don’t agree with this teaching ( an others).

“You would agree that the teaching of Catholic Church says using a contraception is an grave sin?”

I disagree, it isn’t a sin, for me.Once, many years ago,I spoke about this with my spiritual director and then never confessed of spoke about this anymore. It is really not the problem.

For the article you cite, it seems as if the Cardinal is choosing government funding over the teachings of the faith. Do you agree?
I disagree strongly with the card, to kill babies is awful, but the card thought it was ok.
And not "it seems" but "it happened".

Are you trying to say it is OK to kill babies for money?
The cardinal, now number 2 Vatican “said” this, acting so.

Or are you trying to say because one person sins that the Pope supports this?
No of course, but I’d love to see conservative people always speaking against pro-choice politicians, speaking about this scandal too.

Can you document where the Pope supports this?
This situation was well known in Italy and the pope chose card Bertone, among all the world bishops, as segretario di Stato. So….
A bit hypocritical to my way of thinking.


John Michael said...

Ciao, peace be with you!

Thank you so much for your response, but especially for your prayers as we had a perfectly healthy girl yesterday, Gianna Clare.

"but I know that in the church’s life many teachings changed"

Interesting, do you understand the implications of this? Can you document with official records when this has happened?

Here are the implications. Let's use scripture as one should on matters of faith and morals.

1.) 1Tim 3:15 "you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth." Simple enough, do you want the truth then go to the Church. Why doesn't it include unless my conscience says otherwise? Where does the "sensus fidelium" or faith of the people come into play? If the primacy of conscience or the faith of the people can trump the truth, then where is it in Scripture? Please don't dismiss this. Did you know at the heart of following the faith of the people when they go outside of the teachings of the Church is disobedience? Think about it.

2.) Heb 13:8 "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and for ever" Jesus, the Word of God, never changes. Let's connect dots, shall we? Jesus, the Truth, set up a way to know the Truth through his body, the Church. Yes, the Church is the pillar and foundation of Jesus, the Truth. Make sense?

3.) Eph 25-27 "Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,
[26] that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,
[27] that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish." The Church is spotless! This is straight from scripture. The Church is Jesus' body (see Col 1:24).

4.) Matt 16:18 "And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it." Have you ever thought about what can be substituted for death? Words like; sin, hell, lies, disobedience, hate, etc . . .

Do you see why it is so important? To say the Church, which is the perfect body of Christ, changed her teachings is declaring the gates of hell prevailed over the Truth! The Truth, the word of God! How do we know what is true? The Church!

Ciao, if the Church changed her teachings, then our faith is in vain.

John Michael said...

continued. . .

“You would agree that the teaching of Catholic Church says using a contraception is an grave sin?”

I disagree, it isn’t a sin, for me.

Did you mean to avoid the question? Telling me what some Cardinal or Spiritual Director says does not ensure that it is the truth.

Again how do we find the Truth? Go to the Church. Here is a good example.

Matt 18:15- "If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.
[16] But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses.
[17] If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

What does the Church teach about contraception? Let's not forget, this is a matter of faith and morals. Meaning if this teaching changes then Jesus is a liar because the gates of hell prevailed.

Catechism of the Catholic Church 2370 Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality.158 These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, "every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible" is intrinsically evil:159

Thus the innate language that expresses the total reciprocal self-giving of husband and wife is overlaid, through contraception, by an objectively contradictory language, namely, that of not giving oneself totally to the other. This leads not only to a positive refusal to be open to life but also to a falsification of the inner truth of conjugal love, which is called upon to give itself in personal totality. . . . The difference, both anthropological and moral, between contraception and recourse to the rhythm of the cycle . . . involves in the final analysis two irreconcilable concepts of the human person and of human sexuality.160

Ciao, my sister, you are so much me. Your story sounds just like mine. I too was a catechist, teaching children, about the Church I love. I loved the Church, just not all of her teachings. I thought the two was separate. "No big deal," I said, "the Church will change, just give her time."

I was wrong and it was killing me.

Through the grace of God I realized disobedience to the Church is a sin. This was very hard for me to confess. And I thank the Lord everyday that I did. What a blessing this has been.

You know what really hurt me was when I found out that one of three ways the contraceptive pill works is by making the womb a hostile place for a fertilized egg. The end result is an abortion because the little baby can not connect to her mother's womb.

Ciao, you are being called. You know this. Pray for me please, I need your help.

May God bless you and your loved ones.


Anonymous said...

John Michael

"Can you document with official records when this has happened?"

One example? slavery.The Holy Office formally taught in 1866 the following: "Slavery itself. . .is not at all contrary to the natural and divine law...The purchaser [of the slave] should carefully examine whether the slave who is put up for sale has been justly or unjustly deprived of his liberty, and that the vendor should do nothing which might endanger the life, virtue, or Catholic faith of the slave."

The teaching about loan also changed.

And John Michael,
You quote Bible but....
surely you did not put homosexuals to death. Surely you did not put the victims of incest to death. Surely you allow the eating of lobster and crabmeat. Surely you do not deny communion to the disabled. Surely you do not (still) believe the sun rotates around the earth. Surely you do not believe snakes and donkeys can talk.
ALL of these things are in the Bible.

John Michael
I respect your attitude,but I am not concerned or interested by HV or NFP.

I don't think contraception is a sin, and I don't care about this church "teaching".

I'm heading off for vacation tomorrow.
Ciao and kisses to Gianna Clare